Curse

Kashrlyyk · Oct 05, 2009, 11:35 AM // 11:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

....
I strongly suggest they let the winners keep their prizes and choose the names but redesign the bars from the ground up.

I strongly suggest that they sack the whole contest, do not give out the prizes to people that don`t deserve them. Breaking the rules should never result in getting rewarded.

After that the whole team of judges should apologize not only to the "winners" but to the whole community for RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing something as easy as this up.

@Joe Kimmes: I can not even "rest assured" that ANet sticks to THEIR OWN SET OF RULES!!, because of ANets and/or the LiveTeams incompetence.

No one in this forum or the whole community would just role over if they didn't win 100000 dollars because ANet decided to not stick to their own rules. We now see what ANet did in this contest and in the April tournament "ruling" and can we be sure they wouldn`t have done something similar in the 100000 dollars tournament? ANet has to stick to their rules in EVERY CONTEST!

Killed u man · Oct 05, 2009, 12:35 PM // 12:35

Taking away prizes from the winners might be too hard.

I would merely take away the henchman names. Look, it's not a secret, and EVERYONE knows it:

The skillbars were selected completely at random. They did NOT look through all 30.000 bars, otherwise they would have selected better bars (mine included).
I think it's also safe to say the majority of the winners have nearly no PvP experience, on top of the fact that they KNOWINGLY BROKE THE RULES. (Select wiki bars) On top of that, some actually forgot that "player bars" don't always work on heroes, and therefore is proof that these submittions comes from VERY unexperienced people. (Coward * cough *)

Should that really get awared by henchman with their names on it in every PvP outpost and GH?

Every time I'll log on to GW, I'll see the names of "cheaters" -I'm really sorry for the winners, but it's true, tough not your fault- on a prestige spot (You'll be in EVERY district) taunting me, pretty much saying: "You played by the rules, and therefor lost the competition".

Regardless of etiquette, and respect towards the winners, they do NOT deserve such a prestige spot. They can keep the tonic reward, it's only cash, but they definatly do NOT deserve a permanent reward.

Premium Unleaded · Oct 05, 2009, 12:40 PM // 12:40

I guess the rule on buying/selling gold for real currency is just a guideline too, eh? It's explicitly stated in that notice box on the login page, so it must be guidelines.

¬_¬

yeah...

Mangione · Oct 05, 2009, 02:05 PM // 14:05

oh, cool
I had some of the winning bars saved as templates.

I wonder why I didn't submit them (or any of the others I took from PvX), and instead spent two afternoons trying to put togheter some nice working builds (ORIGINAL, not taken from PvX) for NPCs that could actually have some use in PvP.

Here it seems that bars were choosen not thinking about their really effectiveness regarding AI and PvP.

On the issue of originality, before submitting my entries I checked if they were already on PvX. One of the bars I came up with had 5 skills that were in another PvX build, and so I decided to scrap it and create another one. All to avoid breaking the "originality" rule.

I wouldn't be here writing this post if some other ORIGINAL build was choosen instead of mine, nor I would have something to complain about.
But this is not the case. Anet is rewarding people who (intentionally or unintentionally) broke the contest rules. WTF?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

Every time I'll log on to GW, I'll see the names of "cheaters" -I'm really sorry for the winners, but it's true, tough not your fault- on a prestige spot (You'll be in EVERY district) taunting me, pretty much saying: "You played by the rules, and therefor lost the competition".

^^^^this.

Thank you Anet,
next contest I will save my time.

Jensy · Oct 05, 2009, 02:16 PM // 14:16

So like...

I'm really really really curious what people submitted that they find original these days. Can we get more of those posted here?

Doesn't count if it's posted at pvx or in use in the game at all. Nobody can be using it in GvG or HA right now at all. Remember you can search though builds there, and don't forget the archived or testing ones.

Would help as well if people who play in these formats chimed in about the effectiveness of said bars vs current meta.

Shasgaliel · Oct 05, 2009, 02:24 PM // 14:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inde

Fril, the response to this contest has been pretty universal in the negative. I don't care what 'community' you are looking at. As I stated earlier, I was glad to see that ArenaNet is continuing to reach out to us by doing community involved events. Yes, this one had a poor outcome but I certainly hope that it won't deter them from doing more. I thought the concept of the contest was indeed a good one, and while it's hard to know the perception and the end result, I'm sure that ArenaNet has noted the criticism. I still appreciate the outreach though.

They made a contest. They gave a very nice prizes to many pve guys. Heroes/Henchmen with those builds will make AI dissappear from HA/GVG as pvp players wanted. I do not think the outcome is as bad as it seems... I guess they just could explain the rules differently. I expect that preparing those prizes was more time consuming than choosing those builds.

Killed u man · Oct 05, 2009, 02:30 PM // 14:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by pansy malfoy

So like...

I'm really really really curious what people submitted that they find original these days. Can we get more of those posted here?

Doesn't count if it's posted at pvx or in use in the game at all. Nobody can be using it in GvG or HA right now at all. Remember you can search though builds there, and don't forget the archived or testing ones.

Would help as well if people who play in these formats chimed in about the effectiveness of said bars vs current meta.

Tough, for me, there's a small difference between "wiki bars", and bars that are on wiki. Sure, if you look long enough, you'll find EVERY build on wiki.

BUT

The difference between a Double dragon ele, and a SH ele is huge. On top of that, again, most bars posted don't even work on heroes, and thus one can truly assume they simply wiki'd their build, rather then trial and error.

This still doesn't change the fact that most bars are in meta right now, or have been. There still is a huge difference between a Hammer warrior (sucky as it is) and a thumper. RaO should NEVER have won. But that's just one of the many examples.

In reply to people saying that "every build is a wiki build", yes. But some non-mainstream builds should have been given priority over mainstream ones.

Bobby2 · Oct 05, 2009, 02:34 PM // 14:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

@Joe Kimmes: I can not even "rest assured" that ANet sticks to THEIR OWN SET OF RULES!!, because of ANets and/or the LiveTeams incompetence.

QFT.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Kimmes

But yes, we're definitely taking a careful look at the various bars to make sure they're used at least moderately competently by the AI, and there will probably be a number of tweaks/improvements made.

No one in his right mind would believe ANet has any hope of significantly improving AI, what with HB disappearing and all. We all know that 'probably' really means 'not'.

This contest has been blemished with lies from the start.

Robster Lobster · Oct 05, 2009, 03:08 PM // 15:08

The skill required to use Frenzy well isn't about cancelling it when you're taking lots of damage, I have no doubt that a henchman can be very easily programmed to do that. The skill is in switching between frenzy and rush to maximise damage, and good players know when they are able to stay in Frenzy while taking damage if it gives them a strong chance of making a kill. I can imagine henchmen will have similar problems with flail.

http://gwshack.us/0a290

These aren't very original, but here are a couple of bars that (while maybe not currently optimised for AI use) are very idiot proof, and could easily be effective despite being controlled by AI. I didn't submit these builds as I figured warriors would see the most submissions which would reduce my chances of winning, but given the results I very much doubt they'd have won. I can't remember the exact builds that I did submit, but they basically follow the same principles as those two bars: very simple, with a decent level of effectiveness. I can give more examples if people want.

Borat, I'd be interested to see the builds that you submitted if you don't mind.

tealspikes · Oct 05, 2009, 03:30 PM // 15:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by pansy malfoy

So like...
Can we get more of those posted here?

http://gwshack.us/8af27
a bit stereotypical of their profession, but I ddnt see them on wiki so I submitted

Hellscream The Evil · Oct 05, 2009, 03:50 PM // 15:50

here you are one of mine's. Put it on pvx or call it a crap if you want it doesn't matter now...

the "sinergy" is 1+2

p.s. a bot and ONLY a bot can run efficiently this bar, as the contest says... -.-

Killed u man · Oct 05, 2009, 03:55 PM // 15:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robster Lobster

Borat, I'd be interested to see the builds that you submitted if you don't mind.

A hero will use hammer bash before Dev Hammer

(But that can easily be tweaked)

Here are my bars: (I alrdy posted them before)

(15 Fire so he caps out at 20)

http://gwshack.us/1c229

I forgot my third build, but it was some gimmicky hex necro I think, he used Power Leech as an elite. (It's a pretty sick, non meta bar)

I didn't post any skill bars for GvG, as I could not figure out ANY non-degenerative bar for a Hero that would be usefull in multiple situation. Upon reflecting, I should have posted some paragons bars, as they are the ONLY build a hero could run but then again, they break the rules again, so ye...

Desert Rose · Oct 05, 2009, 04:18 PM // 16:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

I strongly suggest that they sack the whole contest, do not give out the prizes to people that don`t deserve them. Breaking the rules should never result in getting rewarded.

You simply cannot prove that the winners took their builds from PvX or other sources.
And ANet are following thier own rules by prompt to sign a certification that the winners created the builds themselves in order to received their prices.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

On top of that, some actually forgot that "player bars" don't always work on heroes, and therefore is proof that these submittions comes from VERY unexperienced people.

Or they simply stopped by Reginas Journal every day:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regina Buenaobra

AI: It's possible that the Henchman AI will be updated to utitlize winning builds effectively, but it all depends on whether the design team feels this is appropriate. When submitting your bars for the contest, you shouldn't necessarily feel limited by the current AI.

Again, we don't know if the winners have no clue about AI limitations or if they simply followed the above hint.

One of the main flaws in this contest is that ANet didn't make the general conditions, rules and goals clear for the community.
Some informations only appered in Reginas Journal, mistakable informations were posted (Martin Kerstein: "Common gimmick builds are not very likely to be picked").

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mangione

Here it seems that bars were choosen not thinking about their really effectiveness regarding AI and PvP.

That's the other main flaw.

JR · Oct 05, 2009, 05:41 PM // 17:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desert Rose

Or they simply stopped by Reginas Journal every day:

There are skills that no amount of AI tweaking is going to ever fix, because they take real judgment and awareness to use. Frenzy, Infuse, Shock... prime examples of the many skills on the winning bars that fall into that category.

Karate Jesus · Oct 05, 2009, 05:49 PM // 17:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

There are skills that no amount of AI tweaking is going to ever fix, because they take real judgment and awareness to use. Frenzy, Infuse, Shock... prime examples of the many skills on the winning bars that fall into that category.

Joe Kimmes has apparently promised to work on those skills so that they'll work (although, he also thought that the AI uses Frenzy decently well o.o).

So, let's see what we get. I'm sure it'll be terrible and lulzy to watch henchmen infuse themselves to death or get exploded while using PR, but whatcha going to do? It's their own fault.....yet again.....it affects the players.

Fril Estelin · Oct 05, 2009, 05:51 PM // 17:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

There are skills that no amount of AI tweaking is going to ever fix, because they take real judgment and awareness to use. Frenzy, Infuse, Shock... prime examples of the many skills on the winning bars that fall into that category.

If Joe Kimmes said that they'd work on Infuse and look at Frenzy if necessary, there may be things possible. He even said "[AI is] one of the easier things to tweak" and "Compared to a lot of things in the game, skill AI is often easy to update". Sure, players do see the results of this code every single day and many know the limits better than programmers.

I think, as many PvPers, you're thinking about these skills with the highly-skilled use that only humans can do, whereas the programmers don't see it that way. Any program can be beaten, you simply have to make it "good enough", which depends on player skills I guess. So for a lot of players it may be "challenging", for the good players it'll always be easy after a certain point. Yet I imagine that if henchmen kick in whenever there's a dc, it could improve many PvP games.

turbo234 · Oct 05, 2009, 05:55 PM // 17:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

There are skills that no amount of AI tweaking is going to ever fix, because they take real judgment and awareness to use. Frenzy, Infuse, Shock... prime examples of the many skills on the winning bars that fall into that category.

exactly. that's why when i made my bars i took into consideration exactly what the AI could use effectively and for those reasons i didn't even bother making any warrior bars(i could have made a hammer bar with flail i suppose).

i don't recall exactly what builds i submitted but i do remember using some less used elites such as boon signet and life sheath, both used pretty effectively.

what i'm thinking now though is, if they do work on the AI, would the infuse be insane at catching spikes? i mean their reflexes are already off the charts

FrostymcPewPew · Oct 05, 2009, 07:11 PM // 19:11

The problem with this whole "we will improve the AI so they use these bars well" is, if they learn to use Ward Against Foes, Grasping, Song, Make Haste and all the other skills which require a certain player input well, what would have been the point of the contest? Now instead of heroes that can easily replace other people, we get henchmen that do the exact same.

It really isn't getting to the issue is it, you know, the PERSON vs PERSON issue.

PS: I hope they do not pull as "oh shit everybody is mad lets just not respond and hope everyone forgets" since that has been done before (see Izzy), and it has happened so many times they, if they don't respond post haste I think we can all say they either don't know what to respond with, or they are genuinely scared to respond, since we are all savages (and pro ones at that).

Motoko · Oct 05, 2009, 07:42 PM // 19:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

Every time I'll log on to GW, I'll see the names of "cheaters" -I'm really sorry for the winners, but it's true, tough not your fault- on a prestige spot (You'll be in EVERY district) taunting me, pretty much saying: "You played by the rules, and therefor lost the competition".

You know you play too much Guild Wars when...

Karate Jesus · Oct 05, 2009, 08:58 PM // 20:58

Here's Regina's latest response on GWW:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regina

Guys, the official rules state: "Entries must be the submission of the contestant and cannot be taken from any other source. ''Your submission must not infringe on any patent, copyright, trademark or other intellectual property right, or any privacy, publicity or publishing rights of any third party, or be libelous, obscene or otherwise contrary to law.''

This means that entries should be original to the extent that they do not violate another person's copyright or trademark. The skills used in Guild Wars are owned by ArenaNet, the sponsors of this contest. Using those skills and putting them into particular combinations is not violating a third party's rights. That is what's meant by "originality".

Btw, here's the link for those of you that'd like to talk to Reggie in person: http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Feedback_talk:Regina_Buenaobra#The_Henchmen_Contes t